If you liked "Cathedral"...
If you liked Raymond Carver's "Cathedral"....
then you might also enjoy "Shiloh” by Bobbie Ann Mason, or ”Travis, B." by Maile Meloy. For Friday, read the first of those stories and post a 4-5 sentence reflection/reader response here as a comment to this blog post. You also need to REPLY DIRECTLY to 2-3 of your classmates comments (think: Instagram/Facebook feed, but slightly more detailed than a series of emojis or five word responses!) as part of this assignment. There's no need to include actual textual evidence in either your original responses or when you comment on classmates' work, but you certainly can. If you're having a hard time generating ideas, feel free to look back to the short story questions we used last term. I just want to get a sense of what you thought about the story you've chosen; there's no pressure, so have some fun and be creative. I can't wait to have a virtual discussion with you all
then you might also enjoy "Shiloh” by Bobbie Ann Mason, or ”Travis, B." by Maile Meloy. For Friday, read the first of those stories and post a 4-5 sentence reflection/reader response here as a comment to this blog post. You also need to REPLY DIRECTLY to 2-3 of your classmates comments (think: Instagram/Facebook feed, but slightly more detailed than a series of emojis or five word responses!) as part of this assignment. There's no need to include actual textual evidence in either your original responses or when you comment on classmates' work, but you certainly can. If you're having a hard time generating ideas, feel free to look back to the short story questions we used last term. I just want to get a sense of what you thought about the story you've chosen; there's no pressure, so have some fun and be creative. I can't wait to have a virtual discussion with you all
Bobbie Ann Mason's "Shiloh" revises Carver's "Cathedral" because while both stories highlight characters who gradually become more in touch with their surroundings, "Cathedral" promotes increased awareness, as the narrator adds depth to his life, while "Shiloh" warns against it because Leroy loses his wife. In "Cathedral," the narrator's ability to draw the cathedral with his eyes closed ironically signifies his increased clarity towards reality; this moment provides meaning to his life because prior to this, the cathedral is an object on television that he can neither describe or identify with. Contrastingly, in "Shiloh," Leroy's increased presence at home illuminates the apparent discord in his marriage; he is forced to confront issues in his marriage that were never visible when he was constantly on the road and thus blind to reality. Mason thus suggests that while the truth itself is not dangerous, emphasized by Leroy and Norma Jean's seemingly smooth marriage before the truck accident, clarity of truth is harmful because they divorce soon after the accident, leaving Leroy sad and alone. - Chiraag K.
ReplyDeleteGood job...nice points of contrast. I'm curious about whether you think Norma Jean will go through with it and leave Leroy? And is one of the crucial differences that the third person in this triangle is probably Mabel, who is the opposite of Robert in many ways?
DeleteI liked the amount of time you put into this. Your analysis is also very deep and fleshed out. Good Job bro
DeleteAlex, again x2
DeleteAlex, I would have guessed it was you from the "bro." Now...go back and comment on the comment I left for you on your story!
DeleteDon't you think Norma's mom catching her smoking does not also express a turning point in her relationship with Leroy, which led to the divorce?
DeleteMatheus Couto
DeleteI like the analysis that Shiloh warns the reader about awareness. Even Norma Jean thinks that their marriage was better off when they were oblivious to their issues.
DeleteI like this contrast of the two stories a lot. I personally liked Cathedral a lot and seeing how a different story contrasts its deeper meaning is very intriguing to me.
ReplyDeleteTrey wrote this and this was supposed to be a reply to Chiraag's comment. I'm not very good at this whole blog thing.
DeleteIt's okay, Trey! We're all getting the hang of it. I can't figure out why some people's names appear and others don't...were you logged into your SSES email when you posted? But you get a gold star for being the first one to complete this module!
DeleteI agree with the contrast the stories have, and your description of the cathedral giving his life meaning. While in "Shiloh" his realization or epiphany of seeing the mess his marriage is and confronting it, which you explained perfectly. - Mariana G.
DeleteChiraag--what do you think is the most important symbol in this story? There are so many that she tosses in...I like the log cabin, Shiloh itself (bloodiest battle of the Civil War, yet the name itself ironically means "peace"), and the weight lifting.
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you think is really at the root of the dissolution of this marriage?
I really like the symbols that you mentioned because they reveal the growing separation between Leroy and Norma Jean. The log cabin showcases Leroy's ignorance toward his wife's desires and interests; Leroy doesn't know what Norma Jean wants and is thus unable to truly make her happy. I think Shiloh's symbolism is particularly interesting because of its duplicate meaning; to a large extent, Shiloh is expressed in the context of war, but its dictionary meaning of peace contradicts this violent image and provides hope. This hope builds upon the notion put forth by Leroy that his marriage to Norma Jean can be reset, showcasing the hopeful message that marriage overcomes forces of division and adversity. To answer your second question, I think that the root of their dissolution lies in the marriage itself. At the beginning of the story, Leroy reflects on the fact that although they didn't fight, he and Norma Jean remained largely separate before the accident, essentially acting independently. I think Leroy's increased presence at home forced both he and Norma to become aware of their independence and the fact that they really don't know each other. This naturally led to their separation.
DeleteYes, I have the sense that this marriage was never going to make it, especially when he gets home. They married really young, lost a child, he went on the road...I feel like her working out is her outlet and her establishing her individual strength and identity. But I feel sorry for Leroy...I don't feel very sorry for the narrator of "Cathedral," but Leroy feels lost to me.
DeleteBoth “Cathedral” and “Shiloh” capture the difference between looking but not really seeing which ultimately leads to destruction. “Cathedral” shows not truly seeing because of bias, arrogance, and ignorance with the narrator and his misperception of his own relationship with his wife and his misperception of the blind man, but ends on a positive note. While in “Shiloh”, Leroy’s inability to see is caused by his absence, grief, and lack of determination, which all conclusively end his marriage. Because of his job, Leroy is stuck; behind his wife physically and emotionally, incapable of moving on, and holding on to the past. His failure to see and accept the current state his relationship is in makes him repeat the idea that building a home will ‘fix’ everything even though clearly Leroy and Norma both never fully had the chance to deal with Randy’s death together. Norma’s mom is introduced as an outside perspective showing the effort Norma wants to put into changing her life and moving on. Leroy's often use of weed doesn’t let him see things clearly and makes him more out of control, while he wants to be in full control of his marriage without actually trying, impeding him from seeing his reality. Contrasting from Cathedral where the narrator was able to come to a more real and positive realization while he was smoking with Robert. - Mariana G.
ReplyDeletedo you think Leroy's lack of determination came with the death of his son ?
ReplyDelete- Matheus Couto
I agree that Leroy is maybe more stuck than the narrator in "Cathedral." They are both paralyzed, but Leroy can't see any way out because there's no Robert to help him. The outsider here is Mabel, and she's giving perspective to Norma Jean, not Leroy.
DeleteMatheus--I think you're on to something here...I wonder if part of his job choice was running away from home--from the loss of the child and from his wife. And now that he's back there all the time, it's become apparent that he's broken emotionally as well as physically.
DeleteBobbie Ann Mason's "Shiloh" makes a parallel with Carver's "Cathedral" as both main characters passes thorugh epiphany moments; however, as the narrator in "Cathedral" changes his life when the blind man proves to him that are other ways of seeing something than just with your eyes. In "Shiloh" the moments of epiphany is when Leroy gets injured and he sees his wife, Norma, willing to change and he just "stops" in time. Also, the drugs develops a main symbol in this story as with it he kinds forget about reality and lives a unreal life. Essentially, her becoming well built and doing exercises to her body not only shows her physically change but also supports the idea that she was also becoming mentally stronger. In that way, Leroy's inability of reacting to the world and his unwilling of change makes him lose everything and everyone.
ReplyDelete- Matheus Couto
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteInteresting multifaceted analysis. The symbolism of the drugs is interesting as it’s supposed to act like a blockage in thoughts and what’s going on in the world.
DeleteI like the analysis of the epiphany moment. It think its interesting that Leroy has the epiphany but still doesn't take action.
DeleteSo true...he has the epiphany but there's no sense that anything will actually change. I hadn't really thought about the parallelism with the drugs and the way that both main characters try to "block," as Bo says, the outside world.
DeleteShiloh by Bobbie Ann Mason discusses agency and complacency, and the effects of breaking a routine. Both the narrator of Cathedral and the main character of Shiloh, Leroy, are stuck in a routine of monotony and understandably not fulfilled by their professions and avocations. For Leroy the routine of being far away from home for long periods of time, is ironically the only thing holding his marriage together. Over the years, anguish and bitterness consumed Leroy and his wife, Norma Jean, over the death of their infant child. These deep feelings slowly chipped away at the foundation of their marriage. When Leroy is forced to return home indefinitely after an accident, the couple realize the dysfunction in their relationship. Both believe that their relationship is over, but Leroy does not want to let go. Leroy daydreams about building a log cabin with his bare hands. The symbol of the log cabin is a metaphor for their relationship. Leroy deeply believes that if he can build a house for Norma Jean, he rebuild their relationship. Unlike in Shiloh, the narrator of Cathedral benefits from breaking the routine. The narrator, set in his ignorant and indifferent ways, is annoyed that he is forced to stray from the ordinary to accommodate for his wife's blind friend, Robert. The narrator draws instant and resilient assumptions about Robert, simply from his blindness. However, the connection with Robert gives the narrator a new perspective. The symbol of drawing the cathedral with the blind man is a metaphor for the building of a relationship. Shiloh takes the ideas of Raymond Carver in a new direction, focusing on the somber unraveling of a relationship.
ReplyDeleteI agree that this one's tone is more somber, HP. I also love that you're highlighting the log cabin...it reminds me of the bit in Salvage the Bones about how a man builds a woman a house to live in, but here it's really sad since he's trying to build a model of the house, not the real thing, and it's not even a house that Norma Jean wants to live in. I also like the contrast you point out in the broken routine: for the narrator of "Cathedral," that's a real turning point. For Leroy, it shows him that his marriage is over, perhaps giving Norma Jean the space and change to voice what she really wants.
DeleteIn Maile Meloy's "Travis, B.," the most important line is Chet's theory that "wild" doesn't signal dangerous impulsiveness but rather justified reaction to environmental surroundings: "He developed a theory that horses didn't kick or shy because they were wild; they kicked because for millions of years they'd had the instinct to move fast or be lion meat." The word "instinct" suggests that the horses act aggressively for the sake of survival, suggesting the necessity of their behavior as opposed to the aimless nature of their aggression; Chet thus dismisses the simple notion that some animals are inherently misbehaved or destructive and promotes the more nuanced idea that certain behaviors are influenced by external factors. This idea extends to Chet's life, as he is unfairly looked down upon because of his poverty, and those who judge him fail to acknowledge the circumstances that result in his low social and economic status. In this way, the horses at the beginning of the story represent Chet because they are both easily dismissed as a result of an ignorance towards the exterior forces that cause their seemingly inferior appearance. The author thus suggests that as long as underlying conditions are ignored, people such as Chet will never be taken seriously in society; in other words, Meloy cautions against quick judgement and ignorance because they form different "worlds," dividing society into groups that do not interact or help one another.
ReplyDeleteI really like your analysis! The way you describe Chet's theory really adds to my understanding of the story. I also really liked your comparison of Chet's struggle to that of the horses because I agree that he feels looked down upon in the same way they do.
DeleteGreat job! Like Lauren, I love the comparison that you're making and you choose a good quote to situate it. The idea of "wild" is a good one; it feels like Chet is very connected, not just to the horses, but to his particular physical world. Not until he takes the class does he start to see what's outside that world...how do you feel about the ending? Is it a good thing that he goes to find her? Does that give him a positive perspective on his own situation?
DeleteI think that it was good that he went to go see her because it signals a rejection to his restrictions and the overall notion that those in lower social classes can never ascend the socioeconomic ladder; in this way, Chet offers a hopeful outlook to his tragic reality. However, I think that even though he enters her "world," his presence there only affirms the idea that he doesn't belong with her. His quick and awkward departure from her work emphasizes this. Ultimately, his interaction with her underlines the overall caution about the power of ignorance in establishing unhealthy hierarchies. Chet's final action of memorizing her number but throwing the paper away ultimately confirms the tragedy of the story; the act of memorizing reveals his relentless hope of overcoming societal barriers but the act of pushing the paper away from him, a tangible object, emphasizes that his hopes will never become real.
DeleteGreat job, Chiraag! I love what you have to say about him memorizing the phone number and its significance. Very insightful.
DeleteIn "Travis B" by Mailey Melois the final line changes the tone of the story. As in the beginning he plays with the "wild" horses contradicting his family and risking his life. In the end, Chet memorizes Travis B number but he throws the paper away. This symbolizes that he now understands that he was not supposed to be with her because of the way he was raised. As she said, she went to school and working selling shoes would be a shame for her, as for him; he works feeding horses and cattle. He understood that the world sets stereotypes that are hard to break; although, they liked each other. It seemed like that a woman like her did not wanted to be see with him that is why she always left early the encounters. Someone might say that the distance also express a major conflict in their relationship; however, love can break all barriers and distances, and that was not why their relation did not work.
ReplyDelete- Matheus Couto
I like the analysis of the social hierarchy. Even though they were born at a similar socio-economic strata, Beth's social mobility to become a lawyer distanced herself from Chet.
DeleteI think your analysis of the realization of the social hierarchy is interesting. I think it is very similar to Gatsby's struggles.-alex
DeleteAlex I liked your connection with Gatsby and the impossibility of rising in society.
DeleteYes, Alex--interesting connection to Gatsby that I hadn't considered. Matheus: I really like what you're saying about how they're both restrained by their circumstance. We think more about him being in a certain place in the social hierarchy, but even if she wanted to be with him, I think you're right that she can't allow herself to do that.
DeleteTravis B by Mailey Melois, while a story of a innocence and affection, primarily focuses on social structure. Beth Travis is a lawyer, though her title is above her inherited social position. Beth's family have humble jobs, and yet she has the social mobility to go to school and become a lawyer. The main character, Chet Morgan, is born in rural Montana. Due to his physical limitations, he tries to prove that he is invincible by riding green horses. As a young man he continues his work with animals; his jobs are mainly caring for and feeding livestock. In the social hierarchy, Chet is traditionally too humble to date a city lawyer like Beth. Beth is not repulsed by Chet, in fact she has, at the very least, some affection for for him. Because of her humble beginnings, Beth feels she must prove herself as high class to fit in with her counterparts. Like Beth said about herself, she should be selling shoes because of her born social position. She implies that if she still was a person who sells shoes, she would have no problem dating Chet, but because she is a lawyer now, she doesn't reciprocate Chet's feelings. It is also notable that Chet falls in love after seeing Beth two or three times. Chet's wishfulness clouds his judgement, which leaves him bitter.
ReplyDeleteI really like your analysis about social hierarchy and how it affects their relationship. This topic has come up in many books we have read.
DeleteGreat job, HP. The comment I left on Matheus's response above applies really well to yours as well...I hadn't really thought about it until I read your responses, but Beth is held back by her sense of her place in the social hierarchy as Chet.
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